jibal 3 hours ago

Steve Crocker hired me as a junior coder when I was a freshman at UCLA, Charley Kline who made the first ARPANET remote login (to SRI) mentioned in the article was my supervisor, Vint Cerf (aka "godfather of the Internet" and co-inventor of the TCP/IP protocols) was a cow orker, and Jon Postel (aka "god of the Internet" -- it's downright criminal that the article doesn't mention him as the RFC editor--RFCs would not have been successful without him) shared a cubicle wall with me. I managed to get a mention in RFC 57. Those were the days.

P.S.

"The goal was to create a reliable, distributed communication system that could continue operating even if parts of it were damaged by a nuclear attack."

This is a myth. The ARPANET was not hardened; quite the opposite. ARPA's goal was for their researchers located across the country to easily share their work ... initially it was just used to share papers, before Ray Tomlinson invented email. Beyond that, JCR Licklider who laid the conceptual foundations was looking toward something along the lines of today's Internet + AI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%E2%80%93Computer_Symbiosis

P.P.S. Steve Crocker's MIT PhD thesis was on man-machine symbiosis. I know this because he mentioned it to me when I met him in the UCLA Computer Club which he came to because he wanted to teach an informal class on LISP and Theorem Proving, and the club organized such classes. We got to talking about his thesis, he posed some challenges to me that I got lucky in solving, and he immediately offered me a job (he was the head of the ARPANET project at UCLA, under Leonard Kleinrock) that shaped the rest of my life--I'm greatly indebted to him.

Y.A.P.S. Steve Crocker received the Jonathan B. Postel Award (created by Vint Cerf) last year.

  • ackreq 3 hours ago

    You must have some amazing stories from back then! I’d love to read them if you ever feel like writing about it.

    Thanks for reading my post. If you notice any incorrect information, please let me know anytime and I’ll update it

    • jibal 2 hours ago

      Please please please mention that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel (aka "god of the Internet") was the RFC editor--he did a huge amount of work to make it a success.

      Also:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET

      "The ARPANET was not started to create a Command and Control System that would survive a nuclear attack, as many now claim. To build such a system was, clearly, a major military need, but it was not ARPA's mission to do this; in fact, we would have been severely criticized had we tried. Rather, the ARPANET came out of our frustration that there were only a limited number of large, powerful research computers in the country, and that many research investigators, who should have access to them, were geographically separated from them."

      • ackreq 2 hours ago

        Thanks a lot for sharing these informations. I’ll update the post accordingly within 24 hours after I’ve read them.

        • jibal 2 hours ago

          Note this in his WP article:

          "Postel was the RFC Editor from 1969 until his death, and wrote and edited many important RFCs, including RFC 791, RFC 792 and RFC 793, which define the basic protocols of the Internet protocol suite, and RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors. Between 1982 and 1984 Postel co-authored the RFCs which became the foundation of today's DNS (RFC 819, RFC 881, RFC 882 and RFC 920) which were joined in 1995 by RFC 1591 which he also co-wrote. In total, he wrote or co-authored more than 20 RFCs.[12]"

          And from the RFC article:

          "From 1969 until 1998, Jon Postel served as the RFC editor. On his death in 1998, his obituary was published as RFC 2468.[12]" (written by Vint Cerf)

          "Beginning with the ARPANET, an endless stream of networks evolved, and ultimately were interlinked to become the Internet. Someone had to keep track of all the protocols, the identifiers, networks and addresses and ultimately the names of all the things in the networked universe. And someone had to keep track of all the information that erupted with volcanic force from the intensity of the debates and discussions and endless invention that has continued unabated for 30 years. That someone was Jonathan B. Postel, our Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, friend, engineer, confidant, leader, icon, and now, first of the giants to depart from our midst."

          "Bearded and sandaled, Jon was our resident hippie-patriarch at UCLA. "

          Actually, Jon often padded around the CompSci department at Boelter Hall barefoot.

          "He leaves a legacy of edited documents that tell our collective Internet story, including not only the technical but also the poetic and whimsical as well."

        • jibal 2 hours ago
          • ackreq 2 hours ago

            Sure thing, I will. Thanks again for your previous comments. I’ll do my best to include them in the post.

            • jibal an hour ago

              Also see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2441

                 "One can also read that Jon was the editor of the RFC, and may think
                 that Jon checked only the grammar or the format of the RFCs.  Nothing
                 could be further from the truth, not that he did not check it, but in
                 addition, being the corporate memory, Jon had indicated many times to
                 authors that earlier work had treated the same subject, and that
                 their work would be improved by learning about that earlier work."
              
              ...

              " Our foundation and infrastructure of standards was the secret weapon that won the war. Jon created it, using the RFC mechanism initiated by Steve Crocker. It was Jon who immediately realized their importance, and the need for someone to act as the curator, and volunteered.

                 The lightning speed with which Microsoft joined the Internet was not
                 possible without the quality of the existing standards that were so
                 well documented.
              
                 During the transition from ARPA, through the NSF, to the commercial
                 world there was a point in which the trivial funding required for the
                 smooth operation of editing and distributing the RFCs was in doubt.
                 At that time the prospect of not having funds to run this operation
                 was very real.  Finally the problem was solved and the process
                 suffered no interruption.
              
                 What most of the involved agencies and managers did not know is that
                 there was never a danger of any interruption.  Jon would have done it
                 even with no external funding.  If they did not pay him to do it, he
                 would have paid them to let him do it.  For him it was not a job, it
                 was labor of love."
              
              " When fancy formatting creeped into the Internet community, Jon resisted the temptation to allow fancy formats for RFCs. Instead, he insisted on them being in ASCII, easy to e-mail, guaranteed to be readable anywhere in the world. The instant availability and usability of RFCs was much more important to him than how fancy they looked."
              • ekr____ an hour ago

                I think there's a fair argument to be made that this was a bad decision on Postel's part, because it made it harder to have good diagrams as well as mathematical formula, and of course it also meant that we couldn't render many people's names correctly. In any case, RFCs are now published in HTML and allow non-ASCII characters.

ErikCorry 5 hours ago

Forgotten? No mention of why we should think they are forgotten outside the headline.

  • candiddevmike 2 hours ago

    Most things are now vendor proprietary and not designed for interoperability. RFCs are forgotten because you can't monetize an RFC.

    • woodruffw 44 minutes ago

      This is a very funny thing to assert on a forum that's entirely delivered via openly standardized (via IETF, W3C, etc.) technologies!

      (Also, you certainly can monetize an RFC. In fact, that's the norm in a lot of RFC categories: the various PKCS-derived RFCs are a direct extension of various patented standards that RSA[1] sold software atop of.)

      [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_Security

    • lexszero_ 2 hours ago

      Interestingly, ISO standard documents are sold for a non-insignificant price and DRMed, while people writing them are volunteers and/or paid by their employers to participate in standardization committees. A company willing to build equipment for an industry running on ISO/IEC communication protocols (like electric power distribution) may have to pay thousands for relevant standards, or rely on someone's interpretation of said standards to implement the protocol before they even begin, not considering certification costs.

  • RHSeeger 3 hours ago

    As part of my normal work, I linked and quoted part of an RFC just this week. They're not forgotten, just... less remembered, I guess.

  • ackreq 4 hours ago

    Nowadays, my friend, people just copy, paste, or vibecode everything. If you (or anyone) think they’re not forgotten, you’re one of the few who still read and understand the RFCs. Said that in the post too.

    • Anon1096 4 hours ago

      The people building the infrastructure powering the internet at cloudflare, major cloud providers, isps, etc are all regularly reading and referencing RFCs (from experience). People who aren't reading them now weren't reading them in the past either, we don't need some RFC moral panic.

      • Demiurge 3 hours ago

        I agree. RFCs have a niche use case, like a manual, or a glossary. They're there, if you need them, but few people are supposed to be implementing RFCs or internet from "blueprints" all the time.

        • onraglanroad an hour ago

          I don't think they're that niche. If you want to know what an email address can contain or what a cname should be, just read the RFC.

          They're surprisingly easy to read and I'd encourage any younger readers to have a look at ones that are appropriate to your field. You'll almost certainly learn something new and it's good to have a grasp of these fundamentals.

          • vlovich123 an hour ago

            Which RFC? The challenge as with all technical specifications is that you have revisions over time and even some times get split up into multiple RFCs. And then as with all interoper issues, is the RFC that you implement the one that other systems you’re interacting with also implementing that RFC. And then even after all of that, you have implementation differences where even if you follow the RFC to the letter, other implementations either made intentional alternate legal choices or had bugs.

            RFCs are generally easy to read but there’s a meaningful chasm between understanding the RFC and what actually gets implemented in practice.

    • woodruffw 4 hours ago

      I don’t know what niche you inhabit, but anecdotally the overwhelming majority of engineers I know have consulted an RFC. RFCs are an active component in the Internet; you need to at least reference them (if not fully read them) to understand how various parts of the Internet interoperate.

      (It seems extremely unlikely that the average non-junior engineer hasn’t opened up RFC 3339 or one of the HTTP caching RFCs, just for example.)

      • dehugger 3 hours ago

        I dunno, I think many dev are aware of the existence of RFCs, but if your work occurs at higher levels of the stack there is frequently not a pressing need to read them.

        For example, you don't have to read the specific RFC to know the difference between 200, 400, and 500 status codes. Any layman's blog post (or literally just reading the response messages accompanying those codes in actual use) is enough knowledge to get you real far.

        That said; if a senior dev isn't aware of 3339, the holiest of RFCs, then that's a problem.

        • Uehreka 2 hours ago

          > That said; if a senior dev isn't aware of 3339, the holiest of RFCs, then that's a problem.

          I’d love to read it, but I don’t have the time.

        • rkomorn 3 hours ago

          There's a strong inverse correlation in my career between how often a dev refers to RFCs by number alone and how much I ever want to interact (let alone work) with them again.

          Doubly so for the "meta" RFCs (eg 1925).

          • woodruffw 2 hours ago

            I understand that PKI engineers are not a very fun lot, but it seems unfair to blame them for having the various X.509 RFCs beaten into them :-)

        • ellenhp 2 hours ago

          Would you mind elaborating on why you believe people need to have that number memorized to deserve the title senior?

          • worik 2 hours ago

            Not the number

      • LambdaComplex 3 hours ago

        Personally, I have about a dozen related RFCs on my bookmarks toolbar due to a project that I worked on. I was referencing them constantly when I was actively working on that project.

    • alterom 4 hours ago

      Yeah, as if reading and understanding RFCs was the pastime of the commoner in Ye Olde Dayse.

      Or as if the vibe-coder of today would've totally™ definitely© be the type of person to peruse the RFCs.

      It's like saying the the proof of, say, Seifert-van Kampen theorem is "forgotten" because nowadays, my friend, people ask ChatGPT to write out solutions to their math homework.

    • James_K 4 hours ago

      The fact that you are able to send this message over the internet is proof that a quite large population of people are still reading and still understand internet standards.

  • zaik 4 hours ago

    Outside of my friend group, no one uses XMPP, the internet standard for chat, they only know about walled gardens and custom protocols by VC startups now :(

    • SunlitCat 4 hours ago

      Since when became XMPP "the internet standard for chat"? What about IRC[0]? :(

      [0]: RFCs 1459, 2810 - 2813, 7194.

    • MYEUHD 4 hours ago

      Whatsapp, Zoom and Kik Messenger use XMPP under the hood.

      Just because it's not well-known doesn't mean it's not widely used

      • betaby 3 hours ago

        Whatsapp used XMPP many years ago, not today though.

        • alexchantavy 3 hours ago

          I miss when Facebook Messenger let you connect to it with XMPP back in the day so you could have it together with your other msging services on Adium/Pidgin

    • loeg 3 hours ago

      XMPP has nothing going for it.

    • lou1306 4 hours ago

      Come on, of course there will be some protocols that are more obscure than others, but the overall concept of RFCs is far from "forgotten".

      Besides, a lot of these walled chat gardens roll their own XMPP/Jabber thingy behind the scenes.

progbits 2 hours ago

If you haven't done it before, I strongly recommend picking some RFC and implementing it, with no other references (you can of course look up language and library questions, just without referencing existing implementations or anything specific to that RFC).

It's really nice to have a complete and rigorous specification. It's quite common today for docs to be extremely incomplete or vague, especially as more and more teams use LLM to generate a lot of prose that is devoid of information.

For example 1495 is nice if you like IRC. You can pick to implement a server and try to connect with existing clients to validate your implementation, or make a client and join your favorite server (though test on some test server first).

  • placebo 21 minutes ago

    I actually did exactly that for a product back in the days when there was no open implementation. IRC, SMTP, POP3, DNS. Good times :)

  • ackreq an hour ago

    That’s exactly how you learn the depth of a specification.

dcminter 4 hours ago

Not forgotten, but this article did not mention my favourite and the most moving RFC: 2468

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2468

There's quiet genius in that choice of number by the way. 2, 4, 6, 8, who do we appreciate?

Related: https://www.internetsociety.org/grants-and-awards/postel-ser...

  • ackreq 4 hours ago

    Wow, never heard of this one before. Thanks for sharing!

    • dcminter 3 hours ago

      It's a treasure. I feel for those expressing their loss - and at the same time am slightly in awe that IANA used to be "just some guy" - this plus the April Fool tradition gives the RFC series a very approachable human feeling.

  • hinkley 3 hours ago

    Vint is now 82 and I wonder when we’ll have a black bar for him.

    The most recent picture of him on the Wikipedia article was at 74 and he still looked fairly spry.

k__ an hour ago

I had to read a bunch RFCs in my career as technical writer.

It's always a humbling experience to read the ones about the technology that powers the internet and they are older than me.

mapn827 2 hours ago

The part about ARPANET was created to withstand a nuclear attack, is a common myth. It was linked to the Cold War, yes, but was created to communicate betweeen different computer systems and sharing of information.

EDIT: jibal pointed that out 30 minutes ago, didn't see that.

foo42 3 hours ago

People interested in the history of the internet may enjoy the book "Where wizards stay up late". I'm sure there are other good books on it too (perhaps others can recommend below), but that's the one I read and enjoyed.

spacebuffer 3 hours ago

Tangent questions:

- What RFCs are useful to read if I want to learn networking well

- I heard that the best way to learn low-level programming is by rebuilding already existing programs. what high quality RFCs can I use as a guide to code-my-own <so and so program>

  • ekr____ 2 hours ago

    Almost none of them.

    There are a number of problems with trying to learn networking from the RFCs. First, they're specifications, not tutorials, so they just assume that you have a lot of background that you otherwise have to infer. Second, it's very common for a protocol to have been iteratively developed over the years and so split over a number of RFCs. In some cases, people will eventually try to consolidate things into a single document or document suite, but it's a big pain to do that, so it often doesn't happen.

    Finally, a lot of the foundational RFCs were written long before we had a good understanding of how to design a robust networking protocol. For example, if you just implement TCP's original rate control algorithm [RFC 793] you get a system which is very vulnerable to congestion collapse (see https://ee.lbl.gov/papers/congavoid.pdf for more). Even with a more modern specification for RCP as in RFC 9293, you kind of have to work to piece together the shape of a working system. The QUIC RFCs are better because they were written all at once, but it's still not really designed to teach you.

    IMO a better place to start is TCP/IP Illustrated by W. Richard Stevens. Volume 1 really explains the protocols. Volume 2 shows how to actually implement them.

  • KylerAce 2 hours ago

    Start with the rfc on udp since it's 4 pages long. Then you can pick from ipv4, ipv6, tcp, and then the html's (1, 1.1, 2, and 3).

gnarlouse 4 hours ago

Aren’t all PEPs, TC39s, and BIPs forms of RFCs?

  • woodruffw 4 hours ago

    They’re all forms of requests for comment, but people also typically mean RFC to mean IETF RFCs.

  • betaby 3 hours ago

    They surely are!

JaumeGreen 3 hours ago

What I dislike of RFCs is that some are accepted, but still referred as RFC, for no apparent reason.

I specially dislike when some people try to do the same with internal documentation and still call "RFC 2029 Project Lifecycle" when it has been accepted by all the appropriate parties. It makes it harder to look for than needed, and it's not clear, by the name, if it has been passed or not.

  • goku12 2 hours ago

    They were going to have to choose a name for the entire document series, irrespective of the stage of evolution each document is in. I don't have a good answer to why they choose RFC for it, though a sibling comment does address that part. What you're looking for is an indicator for the stage in its evolution. That is fulfilled by the RFC's 'Status' [1][2]. You can use it as a search criterion on the rfc-editor website [3].

    [1] https://www.ietf.org/process/rfcs/#statuses

    [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2026#section-4.1

    [3] https://www.rfc-editor.org/search/rfc_search.php

    • jibal 2 hours ago

      Try this prompt: "I think there was a discussion that led to Steve Crocker naming "RFC" that ... do you have information on the discussion?"

  • lanyard-textile 3 hours ago

    The discussion continues for the lifetime of an RFC, even after its acceptance. The idea is to continually keep it in a challenged state so that we remember anything can be possible.

    If we desire something new, the RFC invites us to build upon it and not accept it as gospel.

    Whether you, your project, or your organization accept it is completely disconnected with the concept of the RFC. You may procedurally accept it as unchallengeable gospel, but the truth remains that you can always have an opinion about it regardless.

  • CaptainOfCoit 3 hours ago

    The nicer format is "X Change/Improvement Proposal" or something similar, shorted to "XCP/XIP". Not sure where it originally comes from, but is pretty popular in various protocol circles, Bitcoin Improvement Proposal (BIP) is one example.

    • goku12 3 hours ago

      There are NIPs (for Nostr), PEPs (for Python)... But they all have the problem that parent is complaining about. The possibilities/proposal part of the names remain even after they have been accepted or rejected.

      • CaptainOfCoit 2 hours ago

        It kind of makes sense! First you make a proposal, and then it's a accepted proposal or rejected one. Just because it changed state doesn't mean it's no longer a "proposal".

        Compared to a RFC. If it's accepted/rejected, it's still a RFC, which isn't really true anymore, comments are no longer requested.

mlhpdx 5 hours ago

These are the RFCs we know, and many others we don’t. The ones “lost” to obscurity generally deserve the fate but I enjoy reading them for the historical context. Fascinating stuff.

afisxisto 2 hours ago

My favourite still has to be RFC2549. I long for the days when a good April Fool's joke has that degree of effort put into it.

jeffreygoesto 4 hours ago

"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea."

  • dc396 4 hours ago

    "with sufficient thrust, anything can fly -- it's the landing that can get messy"

  • mkoubaa 4 hours ago

    Reminds me of a Russian joke:

    Can a hedgehog fly? Yes, if you kick it.

    • hinkley 3 hours ago

      Birdie, birdie in the sky

      Dropped some toothpaste in my eye

      Me no care, me no cry

      Me just glad that cows don’t fly

  • ackreq 4 hours ago

    "It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead."

rednafi 3 hours ago

Oh, RFCs aren’t forgotten. Every FAANG and wannabe FAANG has some form of RFC writing and reading culture baked in.

With AI, companies are forcing people to churn them out faster than ever. It’s gotten to the point where, to keep up with this slop, people are using LLMs to summarize LLM-generated RFCs.

  • bazmattaz an hour ago

    Yep, engineers pump out some many RFCs in our company that I first run it through an LLM to see if it’s worth reading